Fletcher Wimbush:

I'd like to welcome everybody to the Higher Talents, Podcast, a hiring for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. And today we're going to talk a little bit about leadership and how that applies to the hiring process, but also some just great current event leadership skills and strategies that we can use. We've got Rebecca Morgan, a Certified Safety Professional and Certified Management Consultant. She is an international speaker, trainer, consultant, and a best selling author of 28 books, an amazing feat. I am super stoked that you decided to come and chat with us and our audience and our clients.

Fletcher Wimbush:

She specializes in helping team leaders be more effective. She's appeared on 60 Minutes, Oprah, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, NPR, USA today, as well as a ton of other international media. We've invited her today to discuss her latest book, Information Leadership Lessons from Silicon Valley.

Rebecca Morgan:

Right.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Right there. And How to Survive and Thrive in Disruptive Times, as it relates to remote teams and also in the recruiting and development and retention of key talent. So I am honored that I got to speak to somebody who's met Oprah and with such great credentials. So this should be really great for everybody to get to know you and hear what you have to say.

Rebecca Morgan:

Thank you. Can I make one modification? You said I was a Certified Safety Professional and I don't know anything about safety, so Certified Speaking Profession.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Oh, speaking, speaking. Okay. I looked it up right beforehand. I was like, I don't know what a CSP is. And I got the wrong thing on the top of my Google search, but no. So awesome. Well, so I guess, where I always like to begin with folks is just, I mean, how did you get here? How did you decide this was the path for you? And you've done a ton, so just tell us a little bit about your background and how it led you to team leadership and a little bit about how your career has developed.

Rebecca Morgan:

Sure. So many, many, many moons ago I was working in an organization and they invited me to teach a class. And the class at the time was on assertiveness training. And I said, well, I'd be happy to teach a class for the other staff members, but I've never taken a class on assertiveness training. So why do you want me to teach this? And she said, because you live your life assertively. So I did that, enjoyed that. The word spread, took it out into clients in the community, heard about it, etc. And then from then on, pretty much, people have said to me, you're an exemplar in X, would you come teach our people how to do X so well? And I not only shared my best techniques, but I gleaned, I researched other people's best techniques.

Rebecca Morgan:

So fast forward many, many years. And this particular focus on team leadership came about because I live in Silicon Valley. I've lived in Silicon Valley since I was 12 years old. And I have many Silicon Valley clients, and I was speaking abroad quite a bit. In the last 10 years I've done quite a bit of speaking in foreign lands, conferences and management meetings. And they would always ask me, you live in Silicon Valley. What's the secret sauce? How do these people lead so well? And I had to think about, well, what do my clients do that they do particularly well, or that are unique. And then I drilled down and found publicly available documents of reports from these companies on their best practices, as well as other research.

Rebecca Morgan:

So it really was a good fit because the research really corroborated a lot of what I had observed in both my clients that were excellent at leadership, as well as the clients who were not so good at leadership and what they did that wasn't working. So this research a couple of years ago that I found and congealed, and I had other studies that corroborated some of my thinking and some of what I was seeing in the research, really made me say, I think this is really my area to share because I'm kind of uniquely qualified in a way in that I live here. I've worked with many of these companies and it just fit with my own philosophies.

Fletcher Wimbush:

That's really cool, and I really respect that. I talked to a lot of speakers and there's a lot of good information out there. And so was kind of after my own heart here. It's about, these are great ideas, but let's back it up with kind of data and research. And I know that's something we've done in our business extensively. And people always say things, and well, is that based in fact or truth? Or what's the data that supports what we're talking about? And so it's really cool that you took the initiative to say, hey, these are great ideas. I know they work, but let's get some real hard facts behind them. And that's really amazing. And not very many leadership folks that I've seen out there take the time to do that.

Rebecca Morgan:

That's interesting.

Fletcher Wimbush:

So I really appreciate that attention to detail there. So let's see. So we're obviously in unforeseen times and everything having to do with COVID has been disruptive. And probably one of the biggest, most disruptive things has been the move from working in a place of a business and rubbing elbows and being in the same office with people, being able to kind of interrupt or talk or have even a social aspect, go out to lunch or happy hour afterwards. And so we're really moving from this kind of in-person theme, and we're seeing it. Obviously, Facebook, I think today or yesterday said 50% of their workforce won't come back to the office. And Twitter, I think, said anybody who doesn't want to come back. And several other big name companies are saying these things. So what are the two or three key leadership strategies that have they developed or worked on, or that you've seen that are going to allow the big company, great tech companies, and other companies be successful in that transition?

Rebecca Morgan:

Great question. So I've been querying some of my clients, because I knew we were going to be discussing this, to find out what they were doing. So let me put an umbrella over all of this. One of the key learnings from the Google study, the Project Aristotle, which is kind of the underpinning things of this book. They came up with five elements that made their teams most effective and how the team leaders created an environment for them to be productive and effective. All five were important, but the one that stood out was called psychological safety, which means you are comfortable expressing your vulnerabilities. You're comfortable pushing back on, on the boss. You're free to be who you are and without fear of reprisal or any sort of punishment.

Rebecca Morgan:

So in these times where people are working at home, I know that you and our viewers know how emotionally vulnerable people are feeling right now in general, because they don't know whether they'll even have a job in a week, a month, a quarter. They're concerned that their loved ones might catch the virus, because even mild cases can wreak havoc on one's life. So it's easy for these temporarily at home workers to feel overwhelmed, especially if they're caring for others. Homeschooling can be frustrating, grueling, etc.

Rebecca Morgan:

So I have a friend who works for one of the big companies in Silicon Valley. And she shared with me the other day that she broke down in tears with her boss. And I said, why? And she said, I have two toddlers at home. They can't go to daycare. I can't get my work done at the same high level that I'm used to in the office. So her boss had been insensitive to her situation. So my suggestion is to really have a lot of grace and flexibility and compassion for these folks who are temporarily working from home, who have never worked at home before. So that's one thought is just how can you, instead of getting mad at your workers for not producing, your teammates, then how about leaning in and saying, tell me more. Do you want to talk about it? How can I support you through this? And seeing what flexibility you can have for them.

Rebecca Morgan:

Another thing a client shared with me was they have regular, optional, but everybody attends, Friday lunch or coffees. So they're spread all over the US but they choose a time where the majority of them are having lunch. And he says, they just spend 30 minutes just catching up and sharing what's going on with their life. There's no business.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Doing it over Zoom.

Rebecca Morgan:

Exactly. There's no business. They're just talking. And he said on larger meetings, they have what they call meeting starters, where for 5 to 10 minutes they either play games, they share some motivational or impactful quotes. They share some life hacks. In fact, he said, one of their people based in London for that 5 minutes, 10 minutes, with her camera, she walked them around a park in London.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Nice. That's creative. I love this stuff. So we used to do team lunches once a week and we'd go out. And we tried to keep it off of work subjects. And one of the guys on our team is great. He's just a great conversation starter. And he would come up with a different topic every week. And over lunch, we'd get beyond the what you did on the weekend, but to maybe what your favorite hobby is, or have all sorts of creative things. And that's really great. I know another good example, just to support those, is one of our entrepreneur buddies who does a daily huddle. On Mondays, they say something about what they did over the weekend. So it's kind of, again, breaking the ice, get to know each other a little better, a fun thing they did, so kind of added to that daily huddle environment. I think that's making it a little more human. It's easy to be too robotic in this remote workforce type of environment.

Rebecca Morgan:

Well, and the challenge, we're all getting so Zoomed out and it's easy to multitask, do other things, and you're not fully present. And in a team meeting, I think you need to be fully present.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Something you said early on about the Google study there, in making a safe environment for somebody to be themselves, that just struck me. We didn't talk about this in the prep, but I feel like we got to talk about this. Because I've interviewed over 10,000 people and I'm a pretty assertive person. And so I can come across pretty strong, and that also doesn't blend well for creating a safe environment for people. So I have to work extra hard to break the ice, maybe to restrain myself from being assertive. And there's a difference between assertive and aggressive, but it can come across as aggressive. And so breaking the ice early in a conversation, asking about their weekend or their family, or their favorite hobby, or just kind of getting to a safe, personal place where you're not violating any rules.

Fletcher Wimbush:

I mean, you obviously have to be careful in the interviewing game there, but just trying to get to know them and opening them up and allowing them to speak their mind. Because then that's how you really get to know somebody, because most people, they're going into an interview, they're automatically on guard. I mean, I want this job. It's nervous. I'm terrified. I want to perform well. So if you can get some to break that down, then they're going to be more open, more transparent, and you're going to learn more about each other. And you're going to be able to be more open and transparent with them.

Rebecca Morgan:

I think personally in an interview scenario, I would start with a question, something like tell me something you're passionate about that isn't on your resume, or something that gets them to express their passions. And if they say, well, there isn't anything, then that tells you a lot right there. But I'm a little, I don't know, I'm not a big chit-chat person.

Fletcher Wimbush:

[inaudible 00:13:03] That's the problem.

Rebecca Morgan:

I would rather accomplish the same goal but with a more meaningful question, is my point of view. In fact, I have a quote in one of my books on [inaudible 00:13:20] frivolous talk. Seek meaningful conversations.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Well, obviously, you open this conversation with that. You were brought in to talk about how to be assertive. And so you and I probably share some of the same afflictions. And again, that can be a very valuable quality, but it also has its downsides. And so just trying to engage with people and get them to open up without closing them up is really one thing that I found. So I thought that's interesting how well that relates to the hiring side. And then the same thing, it's that rapport building with your team members, which allows them to be more vulnerable and to be more comfortable to say what they have on their mind. And, like you said, to be able to push back and tell you their real feelings about the direction maybe that you provided them, I think is super fascinating.

Fletcher Wimbush:

So maybe more specifically, I know we talked maybe a little bit about it, but in this COVID time where everybody's kind of stressed and particularly now, a lot of people are in remote work situations. Maybe some scenarios on how we could apply some of these things you're talking about.

Rebecca Morgan:

Well, in addition to really planning that person-a-person time, those questions that we just talked about, that the kind of getting below just the professional side. Because people want to bring as much of their whole selves as they can to the job. And you may not know that they have an interest in something because you never asked, or they never put something forth. So I think I would just encourage people to be more of a listener and asking a lot more open-ended questions when they start conversations with their folks. And just listen or probe, digging deeper rather than those closed-ended yes or no questions. And you'll be amazed, I'm always amazed, at what comes out with people just feeling comfortable to talk, and then depending on your reaction.

Rebecca Morgan:

So to many leaders, I find, it's really two monologues happening. It's not a deep conversation. So as a leader, I actually came up with this term called leaderful listening. And leaderful listening means you're listening really intently to understand their situation. You're not trying to prove you're right. I've been prey to this showing how smart I am sort of thing, instead of just saying, well, tell me more and really, okay, help me understand how this would work in a situation. And not trying to counter with their idea is a stupid idea, but really finding out what's beneath it. Because maybe there's a kernel in there that is really a new perspective that you wouldn't have heard if you just tried to shut it down.

Rebecca Morgan:

And I see again, way, way, way too many people just trying to shut it down or trying to take over, I call of hijacking the conversation, to their own. oh, well I think, dah, dah, dah, dah. Well, listen to them more fully first. And especially if they're less the sort of people like us. We really have to tamp it down and be super conscious of not overpowering people who are less comfortable speaking up like that.

Fletcher Wimbush:

This is great conversation. I mean, it's just a flood of ideas that just past ideas and things that we do and talk to people about in the past or all the time. It's communicating to seek understanding but seek understanding from the other person's perspective. Why do you feel this way? Or why do you think that's the best course of action? And again, the trick is, and this is where it takes practice. Look, I mean, I'm not perfect at this. I've studied these things probably just like have. You've done a lot more of that than I have, but it's that, how can I politely, in a friendly way, seek to understand and let them know, hey, that's interesting that that's your perspective or that's why you think this is the best course of action. Help me understand. Why do you feel that way? Or why is that the course you chose? And then tell me more. Tell me more is just one of the easiest questions that you can ask somebody to just get them to open up. And it's a pretty nonthreatening and like, oh, well, that's interesting. Tell me more.

Rebecca Morgan:

Exactly.

Fletcher Wimbush:

And again, it doesn't pass a judgment either. And so when I'm trying to train managers how to be better interviewers, we're talking about the same exact stuff. People say something, and our own pasts, we have a perspective that clouds our perception of what that was person is saying to us. And then we make assumptions and we all know what it means to assume. Have you heard that it makes an ass out of you and me? I mean, I just loved that one.

Fletcher Wimbush:

But I really try hard to say, you know what? I don't fully understand what this person means by what they just said. And then to say, well, tell me a little more. I'm not quite sure I fully understood what you meant when you said X, Y, or Z. I'd like to understand that better. And it's amazing what you learn when you start asking those questions. And if you start doing that as a leader with your team, guess what? When it comes time to interview, you've already mastered it.

Rebecca Morgan:

So a couple of my favorite words along those lines are, I'm confused. I'm confused. Or what am I missing? What am I missing? I'm not following this or there's something in here that I don't get how you got from A to B. It's back to being vulnerable and-

Fletcher Wimbush:

Help me understand.

Rebecca Morgan:

You talked earlier about the other people feeling comfortable to be vulnerable. Part of it is you have to model being vulnerable. And by admitting that you didn't get it, or you don't understand it, or you're not way ahead of them. And that models for them that it's okay for them to say, I'm confused or I'm not getting how we got from here, or help me fill in this logic piece here.

Fletcher Wimbush:

There's a great example. In the beginning, I introduced you as a Certified Safety Professional because I was too embarrassed to just ask you, hey, Rebecca, I don't know what a CSP is.

Rebecca Morgan:

And then I was assertive enough to correct you, but conceivably someone wouldn't be. And then all of our viewers would be thinking I had a credential I don't have.

Fletcher Wimbush:

And luckily I didn't start arguing with you about it. No, no. I mean, you said it. It's that sometimes us, we're afraid or nervous or we're too prideful to admit that we don't understand or we don't know, and that's okay to do. And actually you're right. Probably makes us more human when we do say, hey, well, I don't really understand. I don't know much about that, what you're talking about. Maybe you could help me understand more.

Rebecca Morgan:

And in this day and age, people want leaders who don't think that they know everything on the planet. That they admit that there are things that they either don't understand or haven't fully...

Fletcher Wimbush:

Figured out.

Rebecca Morgan:

Exactly. I was repeating myself.

Fletcher Wimbush:

So let's see. So I think I want to ask one other real key question. What is kind of the most destructive thing that you see? The number one kind of biggest kind of faux pas a leader makes in terms of just leading productively.

Rebecca Morgan:

Well, and not to beat a dead horse, but I just think it's when they create an environment where no one, or very few people, or frankly anybody feels uncomfortable pushing back. Because you've got smart people on your team and to squelch their willingness to say, Rebecca, I'm just not seeing that. Or how will we mitigate this? Or I'm seeing this as a possible red flag. If you don't have those people, you are going to run into so many problems. So you have created an environment where there is not psychological safety. It's what's happening if they are unwilling to push back. So you've left people too timid or engaged to speak up, even when they see a train wreck ahead. Can I give you just a little short example?

Fletcher Wimbush:

Yeah.

Rebecca Morgan:

So I was vice president of a nonprofit for about six years. And the founder, the president, could be charming and lovely and supportive and loving, and he could be a bully. And he would find me to bully for some reason. Even though I am assertive, I would pick my own battles. So finally we were doing an event for our donors and supporters. And this event was over multiple days. And he yelled at me the first day. Right before I'm going to give a presentation, he yelled at me about something inconsequential. And I just said, choose my battles. I'm not going to get into it now because I got to go give a presentation. I got to be fully present for that.

Rebecca Morgan:

So then a few days later, he yelled at me again. After that we had a few more events with our supporters. And I said, I'm going to do what I need to do to fulfill my obligations. I'm not going to interact with him if I can avoid it at all. And I'm resigning as soon as this event is over. So my attitude became that classic, not my circus, not my monkeys, where I would see things that were going to go south and I would do enough to make it not be a total disaster, but it was in his lap. And I used to go in and save it. I used to go fix it so that he didn't have to deal with it. And I just became totally unengaged.

Rebecca Morgan:

And I think we're seeing that when there's not that psychological safety where you are respected. Who yells at another adult? I mean, really, who does that? And so if there's not that respect felt, then your people may be still showing up or doing minimal work, but they're not doing exemplary work, and you have created that environment. So if people are not pushing back on you or not bringing up possible problems, then you have created an environment where that is not cool. Now you can turn it around, but it's going to take a lot of work.

Fletcher Wimbush:

And it's definitely very common with assertive type A personalities. I know I've dealt with this in the past and I struggle with it all the time, honestly. And it's definitely a real challenge and you have to be constantly present and aware of it and constantly trying to work on it. And I mean, the one thing I try to do is, I mean, this is kind of hard. I mean, I got to admit, I'm definitely not perfect. I catch myself occasionally doing this. And the hardest thing to do then is I really try hard and I probably am definitely not perfect at it, but I really try hard to go back and say, hey, look, you know what? I screwed up, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have talk to you that way. And this is not you. It's not personal. And then I go into mode of trying to remind them of why they're so great. You're really smart. You're really good at what you're doing. I really appreciate the effort that you put in.

Fletcher Wimbush:

And it doesn't make anything better, but this is a way that I've tried to deal with that when I make the mistake being overly assertive, and ultimately, a lot of times letting emotions get the best of me.

Rebecca Morgan:

And in this example, the person was not self-aware enough to even be conscious, even though people told him. And then there was no apology and no interest in doing anything different. So because one of the first rules of life success is don't expect someone else to change for your own happiness. So I was not willing to be beat up verbally. And so I said for my own happiness, I need to extricate myself from this organization, which I had a close connection with, but it was not worth it for me.

Rebecca Morgan:

So again, some of your people may be feeling this way. And going back to your point about the interview process and onboarding, I think in the onboarding, you need to be transparent and say, in yours and my case, hey, sometimes we are like a bull in a China closet and we may hurt or offend you. And you know what? Please know that that is never my intention. And please here's how you can tell me that I've crossed the line. And please do tell me, because I don't want to be that person. And if I'm ever that person with you, I want to clean that up immediately.

Fletcher Wimbush:

And I mean, for me it's a constant struggle. It never ends. And I feel like it's gotten a little better over the years. I've worked really, really hard on it and I constantly have to do that. And I think one of the interesting points, too, is that how it kills engagement and creativity. And this has given me another kind of epiphany. A lot of times I'm talking to people and they're like, huh. I'm like, hire these people. And they just don't care. And they don't put the effort in and I don't understand. And is it the people or is it the style that you're managing them in? Because sometimes these people are phenomenal people. They're very talented and they bring a lot to the table. And maybe what's happening is at first they're great, but then they disengage. Then that's maybe a side effect of the environment that they've been put into and that's maybe a reflection of the leadership potentially. And so that's something to think about.

Rebecca Morgan:

And I think it also goes back to even the whole process of recruiting and I've had friends who've been looking for jobs. This was before the virus. But they would apply and they would never hear anything. They would never hear anything and they were fully qualified for the position. And so I just want to ask our viewers to say, what's your process? Are you respecting people in the process? Are you responding? Do you have some even automated way of saying, oh, thank you so much for your application. Here's the next step. In the next X days, if you go to the next round, you'll be hearing from us. And so many it's just, they've been ghosted. And then I think, well, how likely is that person going to be able to apply for different position with your company?

Fletcher Wimbush:

Same company.

Rebecca Morgan:

And if you just send them something simple that says, hey, you look like a great candidate. Blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever is next. And that word of mouth too, goes. So if somebody says, well, I applied for X, Y, Z company and I never heard anything from them. And especially like, I just posted a job and I had five questions they needed to answer to go to the next round. And even if they weren't a good candidate, that takes some time for them, even if it's just a few minutes. So I acknowledged every one of them, thanking them for even filling out those questions and letting them know what the next steps were.

Fletcher Wimbush:

And that brings up a really good point. And so you talked about being ghosted as a candidate. And there was a lot of talk prior to COVID that employers were like, oh, these candidates are ghosting us. It was like, well, we taught them to do that. And [inaudible 00:30:35], you can automate this. So I'm a huge fan of applicant tracking systems. They're extraordinarily inexpensive. We sell them, but I don't care where you get them from there. Any applicant tracking system is better than none. It really helps you engage with people and to automate that. So the complaint on the employer side of the recruiter says, oh, I've got 500 candidates that applied for a job. I can't respond to all of them. Well, you can, with an applicant tracking system. I think one key there, and I'm sure you'd agree, but it's crafting that message in a really personal way, in an empathetic way. Because it's too easy to just send this kind of more robotic version that's just thank you for applying. Unfortunately, at this time we've decided to go with another.

Fletcher Wimbush:

But you can actually craft a message that sort of makes it much more personalized. In the CRM, ATS, whatever you're using, we'll personalize it. We'll put dear Rebecca, thank you for applying. But again, carefully wording that message can go a long ways. And then you can automate that piece.

Fletcher Wimbush:

With candidates that get an in-person interview, who have gone through kind of a more in depth part of the process, they get rejected at the end. I definitely do recommend a phone call, a person just, hey, thank you for the time that you've spent and invested in this. You have some great qualities and unfortunately we've decided to move on with other candidates, or whatever it is. And if you can appropriately provide feedback, then do it. It's always a challenge. HR people are walking a fine line on that one, but you can do that if you spend a little bit of time thinking through it ahead of time.

Rebecca Morgan:

And to your point, just adding a little personality to those messages.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Make it fun.

Rebecca Morgan:

And they probably have to go through legal, but don't let legal take the personality out of it. And your company may have a personality already. I use MailChimp, but their messages are silly, they're fun, but they communicate what they need to communicate. So just think about how can I add more humanness this automated message? And inviting them to apply for a position at another time. I think why not?

Fletcher Wimbush:

I mean, a lot of times it's, look, your background is just maybe not relevant at all, but you have to look like you're great at something. If I have another opportunity that's much more appropriate, it doesn't mean I don't ever want to talk to you again, or see you again.

Fletcher Wimbush:

So I think building some of that in, especially when you're talking volume situations, and this is going to come up a lot in this COVID world, and it's going to become much more of an employer's market and to not lose that sensitivity. And especially nowadays with Glassdoor and Indeed offering so many review services of employers, it's really extra important to be sensitive about that. Because in the longterm that can either really hurt or help your ability to attract great talent. And great talent is still going to be difficult to find, because guess what? I'm not laying off my best people.

Rebecca Morgan:

It's going to be interesting to see what shakes out in a month or two or three. Yes. And even during the onboarding process, you can make it even virtually onboarding. I've had friends who've been virtually onboarded during this time. And they say that people just make as extra special effort to not only have the manager reach out and welcome them, but to have each team member take 10 minutes and just do a welcome call and just making sure that those people stay. Because otherwise all that money that you've spent recruiting and hiring that person is going to go down the drain if they don't stay for that 30, what is it? 90 days. If they stay after 90 days, they're more likely to stay longer term. But that first 90 days is so critical. So are you rethinking your onboarding process during this virtual time?

Fletcher Wimbush:

There's some number, and I might be a little bit off on this, but I think it's employees make the decision to stay or go within the first 90 days and about 50% of them decide to leave.

Rebecca Morgan:

Right.

Fletcher Wimbush:

And then there's other studies. I'm a big fan of Mark Murphy and Leadership IQ. I don't know if you've seen any of his stuff. But it is huge study, massive data again. And they found it's 46% of people leave a job within 18 months due to personality misfit issues. And so a lot of that can be corrected by someone using some of the techniques that you've talked about. And that's obviously extraordinarily expensive.

Fletcher Wimbush:

I mean, Gallup, I'll just throw out some more numbers. I love their stuff. Gallup, they didn't actually create the study, they compiled the data. They stole it from everybody else. But the Bureau of Labor and Statistics shows that there's 26% turnover on average in companies. That means if you have a 100-person company, you're going to lose 26 of your employees every single year. It doesn't matter what the role is. If I'm a widget maker and I can make 100 widgets a day and each one's worth $1,000, it's worth $100,000 in product production a day. If I lose that person, you just lost $100,000 every day that that position sits open.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Customer service person. A great one can handle 50 calls a day and get five-star customer review ratings, which then lead to 20% more repeat business and revenue for my company. And a bad one does half as many and it gets a three-star. You can do the math on the opportunity costs you just lost. And how long does it take to get somebody to be a 50 five-star customer service review ratings person. It doesn't happen overnight. You don't hire them day one and they just automatically start doing those kinds of things.

Fletcher Wimbush:

So there's a huge opportunity cost that's lost when we're turning folks over for being the wrong person or you're stifling kind of engagement or creativity so that they're wanting to leave and disengage, especially early in the process. Because it's a huge, huge, huge set of costs there we overlook.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Well, I know we're getting close to the end of our time. So I just always like to just give you two opportunities. One, before you tell us where you can find us and everything about where you can get the new book. And if you're interested in having Rebecca as a speaker or as a consultant come into your business. But what is one thing that you can start doing tomorrow as a leader to become a better leader?

Rebecca Morgan:

Well, especially during this time, which I know is part of our focus of our conversation, I think all of us could do better at acknowledging people more often with specific personal messages of appreciation. And whether that's one-on-one, I appreciate you inviting me to be on this podcast with you. You're a great interviewer, etc. I mean, it could be that. It can also be something written. Imagine actually getting something in the mail.

Fletcher Wimbush:

A handwritten note, postcard.

Rebecca Morgan:

Well, those notes are phenomenally effective. And so even if you just wrote one to each of your team members, once every other week, let's say. Because what happens with those? They read them, they reread them. They show them to their family. They post them on the refrigerator or in their workspace. This becomes something that lives typically for months, if not years. It's in their face, reminding them that you find them valuable. And be as specific as you possibly can, not just great job, or I really appreciate you, but specifically. So those are two little tiny things that you could do just acknowledge them verbally as well as in writing that everybody can do within the next week, who is watching this.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Awesome. Well, this has been great, Rebecca. It was even better than I thought it was going to be. So where can we find you? I've got rebeccamorgan.com. And so there it is on the screen for it to be memorialized, if you want to get the spelling right. So go to rebeccamorgan.com. Check out her book. Contact her to do speaking or consulting for your company.

Rebecca Morgan:

We're doing it all virtual now. We do virtual summits.

Fletcher Wimbush:

Just booked her, get her in there. This is great stuff. And I look forward to seeing you around and hopefully doing this again sometime.

Rebecca Morgan:

Thank you so much.

Fletcher Wimbush:

All right, bye-bye.

Rebecca Morgan:

Okay. Bye.