In part 2 of this episode we discuss the concept of the identity iceberg, and how our sense of empathy influences how we see and related to others.
Jason Adler is an entrepreneur and John Maxwell business coach who brings his decades-long restaurant industry expertise into small business and executive coaching working with people to help them become more successful.
Transcript:
Fletcher:
So I’d like to welcome everybody to The Hire Talent’s podcast. Great hiring advice for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. Today I’m really excited to have Jason Adler. He’s part of the John Maxwell coaching team, world renowned, very good. I like the people first one and connecting with people. I think that has a lot to do … I mean, there’s a lot of talk about the need for more empathy in business and in how we do our jobs and all that. I think that is directly related to the people first idea, right?
Jason Adler:
Yeah and if I could ever get enough discipline in my own personal life to sit down for three or four hours a day and write, I would have a book written about people first. I’m writing here and I’m writing there and putting all that … I just haven’t been able to get enough discipline in my life to be able. So I’m, even with my coach, I need someone.
Jason Adler:
You know, Marshall Goldsmith has a way of coaching where he has a coach call you every day at the end of the day and go through a list of questions. Did you do this? Did you do this? Did you do this? And I guess maybe I need to bite the bullet and get someone that holds me accountable like that.
Fletcher:
Yeah, you need an accountability partner is what it is, right?
Jason Adler:
Exactly.
Fletcher:
Let me see what I can … I’m going to do this here real quick. I’m going to send you a book my father wrote. He was a very analytical guy so it could be a little dry in the titles and the delivery, but one of his favorite concepts was what he called the exchange diagram.
Jason Adler:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Fletcher:
And it’s all about how you really communicate with other people and it’s about essentially giving other people what they want and putting their priorities above yours or any other priorities first and foremost. And if you do that effectively, then whatever it is that you want in return from that relationship whether it’s a business relationship or a personal relationship, is going to come back to you, right?
Jason Adler:
Yeah. And that’s Zig Ziglar right there. So your dad must be Zig Ziglar or at least a disciple of Zig.
Fletcher:
Yeah.
Jason Adler:
You know who Zig Ziglar is, right?
Fletcher:
I do, yeah.
Jason Adler:
I mean, my favorite quote of his is if you help enough people get what they want in your life, you can have anything that you want.
Fletcher:
Yeah.
Jason Adler:
And that’s the concept that you’re talking about, right?
Fletcher:
Exactly, yeah. It’s helping first or giving first. And I think you highlight that at a different level. You start talking about people first before you can help others or help give them what they’re looking for or give them what they want because that’s a pretty easy concept, right?
Jason Adler:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Fletcher:
But before you do that, you first have to understand what it is that is important to them but from their perspective.
Jason Adler:
Yeah, exactly.
Fletcher:
And that’s where the empathy kicks in, right? You’ve gotta be able to put yourself in their shoes, feel like they feel and understand what’s important to them. Because otherwise, I think a lot of people get caught up in this dilemma of I did this and I did that and I was doing all these things for you, Jason, and you never returned the favor. Or you didn’t treat me the way I wanted to be treated in return, right?
Jason Adler:
It’s so true.
Fletcher:
Because maybe I didn’t stop to figure out what your perspective really was, right?
Jason Adler:
The French have a saying that goes what was once old is now new again. So, there used to be a saying that said that you could never know another person until you walked a mile in their shoes.
Fletcher:
Yeah. Exactly, right?
Jason Adler:
You know, and people forgot about that. You could say that to a teenager or a 20 something year old and they’ll go, “Hey, that’s pretty cool. I never heard that before.” Right?
Fletcher:
Yeah.
Jason Adler:
But that’s a saying from 50 or 60 years ago.
Fletcher:
You never know another person until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. Figure out how uncomfortable those shoes are.
Jason Adler:
Or how comfortable they are. You know, you just know. You don’t-
Fletcher:
You just can’t relate. And it’s a difficult thing to do and I guess that’s where empathy comes in, right? You’ve gotta practice empathy or some people are lucky enough to be born with empathy, right?
Jason Adler:
Yeah, it’s true.
Fletcher:
Others of us, like myself, it’s a constant struggle for me. I practice trying to understand and it’s difficult to feel how somebody else feels though, you know? That’s always been a challenge for me.
Jason Adler:
So tell me what it feels like when you can get to that point. How do you know that you’ve reached that point that you know what someone else is feeling?
Fletcher:
Well, that’s the part I struggle with, right?
Jason Adler:
Well, I’m saying but you’ve gotten there at some point, yes?
Fletcher:
Yeah. No, I think we’re all human and we all share in the experiences of human nature not equally, but we do all have similarities, right? I think the times when I’ve had more success there comes when maybe I have a shared experience that is relatable. So, you know, I’ve gone through it myself. Say, the passing of a loved one, right?
Jason Adler:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Fletcher:
I’ve been there. I’ve had that experience. I know how it felt for me at that moment. So now when maybe that’s happening to you, at that point it was a little easier for me to then empathize. I guess in times when I haven’t maybe had an equivalent experience or maybe I didn’t take the time to find one, right? Maybe it doesn’t always have to be exactly the same. You know, there could be similar experiences that are different. And that could be a way to find empathy or to have empathy to recall your own past experiences that could be related to the experience that somebody else is having maybe.
Jason Adler:
Okay. So, yes. You are 100% correct. When you connect with someone, think about someone that you connect with, are you connecting on the surface or are you connecting below the surface?
Fletcher:
Well, generally somebody that I’ve been able to have strong connections with would be below the surface. And in those cases I’m thinking of my girlfriend. We have a really great relationship. I think we have a lot of shared core values.
Jason Adler:
Yeah. So now you’re getting to where empathy lives and breathes is down in the values. I don’t know if I ever shared with you the identity iceberg, but the identity iceberg says basically that we as people are an iceberg and how much of an iceberg is actually above the water?
Fletcher:
Yeah, very little. Most of it’s underneath.
Jason Adler:
Right. So the behaviors and actions and that’s basically just what you see of people. And then just below the surface is their skills. So, it’s easy to change skill because it’s right below the surface and their skills change their-
Fletcher:
They develop, practiced.
Jason Adler:
Right. And their behaviors. Then below their skills are their beliefs. What do they believe? And based on what they believe will affect how they develop skills which change their actions and behaviors. Beneath their beliefs are their values. So way, way down are the values that you have to get to-
Fletcher:
[crosstalk 00:10:33] beliefs and help you come up with your beliefs which then ultimately affect the skills and the [crosstalk 00:10:39]
Jason Adler:
Skills, right, right, right.
Fletcher:
Yeah.
Jason Adler:
So way down there is where empathy resides. So you’ve gotta get to someone on a value based relationship to have empathy. So it is difficult not just for … even for people that are better at it. They probably hang around people that have similar values. So it’s easier for them.
Fletcher:
Easier for them, yeah. Well I guess it’s when you meet a stranger you have to realize that maybe I guess in those cases the core values may not always be the same, but I guess in order to have empathy with a stranger you’ve got to at least attempt to try to get down to that fundamental set of core values or understand what theirs are so that you have a chance of having empathy.
Jason Adler:
Right. And you do that through making quick connection. And just as a brief ending to this identity iceberg, the reason it’s called the identity iceberg is because beliefs, that below the values, is the person’s identity. So your core identity is at the bottom of the iceberg. So from your core identity sprouts your values, then your beliefs, then your skills, then your above the water and what the rest of the world sees.
Fletcher:
Wow. Okay. Well that’s really interesting. Thank you for your hour today and making it work.
Jason Adler:
Pleasure, pleasure. Glad I could help. Talk to you soon.
Fletcher:
Yeah, be in touch. Thanks Jason. Bye.
Jason Adler:
Bye.
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